Discussion:
For Sale: Tube Driver Blue TDB475
(too old to reply)
ReedLom
2003-10-25 10:24:56 UTC
Permalink
I may sell my Tube Driver Blue TDB475. I purchased it new directly from BK
Butler on 8/4/03. It's in pristine cosmetic condition [having been mounted in
an enclosed amp rack] and performs perfectly. I have the factory shipping box,
packing materials and owner's manual. This is the fourth version of the Tube
Driver amp. I've owned all versions; without a doubt this amp is the best of
the group. The ONLY reason I'm considering the sale of this amp is to
accumulate sufficient funds to buy a Denon DCT-Z1. I'm asking $750 + shipping.
MSRP is $1099. I will accept payment via USPS money orders or PayPal if paid
from buyer's PayPal credit balance or checking account. If you have questions,
please email me at ***@cox.net.
John Andreen
2003-10-26 05:47:15 UTC
Permalink
I am curious,

What are the other three Butler designs you are speaking of?


I can only recall two Butler designs. One was the original Tubedriver
manuractured by Phaze Audio. IMHO, it was
an atrocious piece. Poorly laid out PCB, bad power supply design, poor
heater design ( it used the RTO lead to heat
the vacuum tubes) and it was a nightmare to disassemble/reassemble for
repair. Sounded only *OKAY*, well actually it sounded like pushing music
thru sand. The second is the Tubedriver Blue that you now have. I haven't
heard it but I would tend to believe that they might just sound quite
stunning, considering all the technology he "borrowed" from PPI's Tube
Driver designs.

Precision Power Inc., also made a Tubedriver amplifier. It had not one iota
of the technology that BK butler pedals as
his design. PPI did however use a shape close to the Original. I believe
that PPI licensed the name only from BK Butler. This line of amplifiers had
the outstanding quality and sound that PPI was known for. And, the sound
did have a little bit
of the vacuum tube "coloration" from truly operating the tubes at high
cathode voltage. They do have their quirks though.

I am also of the opinion that his new line of amplifiers, Tube Driver Blue
are very much infused with "borrowed" PPI technology. How do I know this
you ask? Ask Mr Butler why he decided to depart from using Lateral MOSFET's
in his audio output section and went with SANKEN 2SC3284/2SA1303 instead.
These are the same BJT output devices that were used on the PPI Tube Driver
amplifiers. Hmmm...., these are two wildly different output topologies.
Audio Engineers that design MOSFET amplifiers don't care for BJT amplifiers
and vice versa. Why did Mr Butler suddenly switch? I haven't seen inside a
TDB, but I would be willing to bet that the power supply topology is a fully
PWM with a toroid xfmr just like the PPI Tube Driver instead of a loosely
regulated E core xfmr like on the original Phaze Audio Tubedriver. Hell,I
would love to get a look at the audio input/preamplifier stages. I would
bet anything that he "borrowed" this too from the PPI amplifier line. His
original designs use TL072 or TL074 operation amplifiers. Great Opamps in
their day, but quite horrible by todays standards. The PPI amplifier used
Burr-Brown Opamps, considerd to be just about the best around for
"audiophile" applications. I even saw that he brags about "his"innovative
heatsink design of the TDB on his website. Appears suspiciously like the
way PPI did their design.

Are the new Tube Driver amplifiers a great amplifier? Probably, after all
he learned from the best!!

BTW I personally own 2 PPI TD2150's, 2 PPI TD1250's and two PPI TD275's and
I love them dearly, and I would be
hard pressed to part with any of them. They have their quirks, but I am
willing to live with them.

John Andreen
Post by ReedLom
I may sell my Tube Driver Blue TDB475. I purchased it new directly from BK
Butler on 8/4/03. It's in pristine cosmetic condition [having been mounted in
an enclosed amp rack] and performs perfectly. I have the factory shipping box,
packing materials and owner's manual. This is the fourth version of the Tube
Driver amp. I've owned all versions; without a doubt this amp is the best of
the group. The ONLY reason I'm considering the sale of this amp is to
accumulate sufficient funds to buy a Denon DCT-Z1. I'm asking $750 + shipping.
MSRP is $1099. I will accept payment via USPS money orders or PayPal if paid
from buyer's PayPal credit balance or checking account. If you have questions,
ReedLom
2003-10-26 07:25:14 UTC
Permalink
The original mobile audio amp designed by BK Butler was marketed by his own
company. Phaze Audio bought the rights to the Tube Driver name/design and
marketed the 2nd version of the amp. After Phaze Audio bought Precision Power,
the 3rd version was designed by and marketed under the PPI brand name
[supposedly, PPI hired a couple of engineers away from Krell to design the
amp]. Then the relationship between Phaze Audio and PPI soured and PPI was sold
to ADST, the parent company of a/d/s. When a/d/s, Orion and PPI were bought by
Directed Electronics [DEI], BK Butler bought back the rights to the Tube Driver
name and BK redesigned the amp, giving us the 4th version.
unregistered
2003-10-26 23:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for interest in my past and current design. Yes, this is BK
Butler, the designer of both the original circa 1995 Tube Driver (which
used lateral mosfet output devices) and the current Tube Driver BLUE
which does, in fact use Sanken Bi-Polar devices.

"I can only recall two Butler designs. One was the original Tubedriver
manuractured by Phaze Audio." Incorrect: There are actually three Tube
Driver versions, the original Tube Driver and the Tube Drive BLUE
versions being BK Butler designs and an in-between version that was a
PPI design. The original Tube Driver was originally built by hand at
Butler Audio's facility (as are the new Tube Driver BLUE amps) and later
licensed to Phaze Audio. "IMHO, it was an atrocious piece. Poorly laid
out PCB, bad power supply design." Re: the power supply. It was designed
in collaboration with a good friend at Echo Star whose PS designs must
have better than a 1 per million failure rate. I personally know of
only one unit that ever had a bad power transformer, and that was due to
a vendor defect, not a design problem", poor heater design (it used the
RTO lead to heat the vacuum tubes)" UNTRUE!! The heater was powered via
a separate active switch. PROOF: If the heaters had been directly
connected to the RTO, no head unit would have ever worked with it since
the tube heaters drew about 500mA continuously, (two 6L6GC tubes with
6.3V, .9A heaters in series) "and it was a nightmare to
disassemble/reassemble for repair." Only if you don't know how to
disassemble/reassemble, I guess. I still service the original units from
time to time, and find them quite relaxing to work on... ;>)

"Sounded only *OKAY*, well actually it sounded like pushing music
thru sand. The second is the Tubedriver Blue that you now have. I
haven't heard it but I would tend to believe that they might just sound
quite stunning, considering all the technology he "borrowed" from PPI's
Tube Driver designs."

Here's where you REALLY need to pay attention. Whether you personally
appreciate the original sound or not, thousands of owners all over the
world still rave over the original TubeDriver. This is the _ONLY_ car
amp STEREOPHILE ever reviewed (they liked it a lot BTW) & listen
carefully here: I borrowed NOTHING electrically from the PPI designers
for the current Tube Driver BLUE design including the power supply! The
PPI re-design (which IS the second generation) had a completely
different usage of the tubes and suffered from several technical
problems including instablility at high power output with chronic DC
offset. It was a reasonably good first attempt at using tubes in an
audio amp, but the tube sound is almost completely killed by their
unfortunate use of high amounts of global negative feedback. Yes, I
have changed to Sanken bipolar output power devices in the TD BLUE
deisgn, but the reason is due to their extraordinary linearity,
consisent beta and current transfer characteristics. PPI was wise to
use them, but Sankens are widely recognized as great audio power
devices. My decision to use them was made only after exhustive tests
using virtually everything from Toshiba, Motorola, Sanyo, etc. Bottom
line: The TDBLUE design is as different from the old PPI attempt as
apples and oranges. The new Tube Driver BLUE technology was awarded a
new US Patent in 2002. This would have been impossible if I had copied
the PPI design. And yes, the new Tube Driver BLUE amplifiers sound is
STUNNING.

"I am also of the opinion that his new line of amplifiers, Tube Driver
Blue are very much infused with "borrowed" PPI technology. How do I know
this you ask? Ask Mr Butler why he decided to depart from using Lateral
MOSFET's in his audio output section and went with SANKEN
2SC3284/2SA1303 instead.
These are the same BJT output devices that were used on the PPI Tube
Driver amplifiers. Hmmm...., these are two wildly different output
topologies. Audio Engineers that design MOSFET amplifiers don't care for
BJT amplifiers and vice versa. Why did Mr Butler suddenly switch?"

I switched because I came up with a revolutionary new and novel way of
obtaining the 'all tube' sound without the need for any former
technology, including my own original design. Simple as that!

"I haven't seen inside a TDB, but I would be willing to bet that the
power supply topology is a fully PWM with a toroid xfmr just like the
PPI Tube Driver instead of a loosely regulated E core xfmr like on the
original Phaze Audio Tubedriver."

Wrong again. The design is circular toroidial and
semi-resonate/saturated with my own twist on regulation. NOTE: To date,
NO power supply failures BTW...

"Hell, I would love to get a look at the audio input/preamplifier
stages. I would bet anything that he "borrowed" this too from the PPI
amplifier line."

Nope, not even close. You sure know nothing about me or my background,
do you? :>)
(snip)
"I even saw that he brags about "his"innovative
heatsink design of the TDB on his website. Appears suspiciously like the
way PPI did their design."

Yes, I liked the way that PPI put the heatsink fins inside and mounted
the cooling fan on the pcb inside, but they failed to add the
wrap-around outside fins which add another 35% free cooling plus the
fact that the entire heatsink structure is simplified and vastly
strengthened over any former idea.

"Are the new Tube Driver amplifiers a great amplifier? Probably, after
all he learned from the best!!"

Completely true! However this is due to an exceedingly amount of honest
hard work. "The best" here refers to the many professional musicians,
customers and music lovers I've colaborated with over my 25 years+ in
the music industry, and definietely _NOT_ PPI's former engineers!

"BTW I personally own 2 PPI TD2150's, 2 PPI TD1250's and two PPI TD275's
and I love them dearly, and I would be
hard pressed to part with any of them. They have their quirks, but I am
willing to live with them."

I then personally invite you to upgrade to the BLUE technology. It's the
new state of the art in vacuum tube design. The PPI designed units were
simply never developed to their full capability. Just before PPI changed
hands in late '98, I was asked by their CEO to come in and correct the
problems with the new line of PPI designed TDs. It's quite unfortunate I
never got the chance to re-design the "re-design". PPI could then have
benefited from the Tube Driver BLUE phenomenon. As it is, we at Butler
Audio are now fortunate to have that opportunity.
Feel free to write me personally at ***@butleraudio.com
Best wishes,
*BK Butler*
--
unregistered
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Stephen Narayan
2003-10-29 17:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by ReedLom
I may sell my Tube Driver Blue TDB475. I purchased it new directly from BK
Butler on 8/4/03. It's in pristine cosmetic condition [having been mounted in
an enclosed amp rack] and performs perfectly. I have the factory shipping box,
packing materials and owner's manual. This is the fourth version of the Tube
Driver amp. I've owned all versions; without a doubt this amp is the best of
the group. The ONLY reason I'm considering the sale of this amp is to
accumulate sufficient funds to buy a Denon DCT-Z1. I'm asking $750 + shipping.
MSRP is $1099. I will accept payment via USPS money orders or PayPal if paid
from buyer's PayPal credit balance or checking account. If you have questions,
I just wanted to endorse Reed as a great seller....but don't try to
scam him or you will be very sorry :)


Stephen Narayan | IASCA Pro Street 1-600 | IASCA Certified Judge 2003
Audio Perfection | ***@sympatico.ca
No System.....yup that's right.
Why not check out my car audio museum :)
http://canuck.audioguy.net/gear.html
Ryan
2003-10-30 13:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Narayan
I just wanted to endorse Reed as a great seller....but don't try to
scam him or you will be very sorry :)
Stephen Narayan | IASCA Pro Street 1-600 | IASCA Certified Judge 2003
Hey Stephen,

It's me Ryan down here in New Orleans (tR #58). I just wanted to
refute your claim that Reed is a "great" seller. I bought some Dyna
speakers from him over a few years (2?) ago and they were NOT as
advetised. Basically they were working but pushed in, jacked up and
not satisfactory. We worked out a deal where he would refund part of
the money and I would keep the messed up speakers. Well, he is LESS
than honest. I never got a cent back. Reed was dificult to deal with
the whole time and it NEVER got resoved. I will never even attempt to
deal with that selfish stingy seller again. And for the record the
amount of refund due was less than $50.

Ryan

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